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  1. #81
    Considering Harmony TheGodlyImage's Avatar
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    Re: I've had it Flash. Nerf him some more, and disable him until then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acerael View Post
    It's pretty much like playing vs a "Katarina" from LoL.
    If you feed her early she will use that for snowballin, it's simple..
    Don't die, be cautious and gain vision on the map to be prepared for Flash..
    Flash can't do anything, if you stop him from doing anything, it's so simple.. Yet.. The lack of teamwork disrupts ways to take down the Flash, since you need burst and crowd control for him, but it will be worth it, Everytime!
    Underfed Flash has a really hard time making a comeback, unless your squishies go alone and Flash takes them out and makes a comeback..
    But that's your fault then for not predicting that..
    I laughed.
    Last edited by TheGodlyImage; 05-08-2014 at 09:22 AM.
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  2. #82
    One With Starro JLA-Lyri's Avatar
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    Re: I've had it Flash. Nerf him some more, and disable him until then.

    Quote Originally Posted by KoH_Generick View Post
    Why exactly are we comparing two completely different champs that do entirely different things?

    Still doesn't change the fact that Flash is OP.
    Their kits are pretty similar.

    Both Q - flat damage
    Flash W and GL E - multiple hit burst
    Flash E - GL W - Slow
    Both R - AOE ult
    Passive - Added damage based on secondary stat (speed/will respectively)

    They may play different roles but their kits are as close as the game allows.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quincunx View Post
    I wouldn't say they do entirely different things, but yes, that was the first point I tried to make in my earlier post. But that, along with all my discussion about how he is an unfair champion that exploits a non-interactive style of combat and allows little to no counterplay from most of the cast, especially melees, got completely ignored in favor of discussions about his damage, which is incidentally very high (and note, I only brought in damage calculations initially to support claims about Flash's Q-W combo).

    I don't know if any of you played League of Legends: Dominion, but Flash is much more powerful right now than Kassadin ever was, and he's powerful for many of the same reasons as Kassadin. Combined with the gambits issue on GD, it's amazing how IC is making the same exact mistakes that League of Legends made, except worse. I hope it's not a trend.
    There are definitely items to counter him and win trades with him in the game - that fact is undisputable.
    Saying there is no counter play to him is patently false, Flash will build straight damage and all you need to do is get a sword of beowulf if you're AD or Neron's Contract if you're AP and with the former, he won't burst you down without putting up a shield, allowing you to trade and win.
    Nerons contract can be used when he ults to stand right in the middle and ignore it - Flash just used a 3rd of his damage output and did nothing - he doesn't even break the shield.

    People still aren't building the correct items to counter a Flash, people want to derp and let Flash get off his absurd damage and get away scot free because they build completely glass cannon because Dawnbase said that I should get Joechills and V9 on Cyborg!
    Completely ignoring the fact that you should build around counter play.

    He may have high damage but Flash is a lot more manageable than people make him out to be.
    Last edited by JLA-Lyri; 05-08-2014 at 10:15 PM.
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  3. #83

    Re: I've had it Flash. Nerf him some more, and disable him until then.

    Quote Originally Posted by JLA-Lyri View Post
    Their kits are pretty similar.

    Both Q - flat damage
    Flash W and GL E - multiple hit burst
    Flash E - GL W - Slow
    Both R - AOE ult
    Passive - Added damage based on secondary stat (speed/will respectively)

    They may play different roles but their kits are as close as the game allows.
    I can play this game too:

    Man, Flash and GL couldn't be more different!

    Flash Q: Extreme mobility
    GL Q: A cast animation (negative mobility)

    Flash W: Highest damage non-ultimate ability in the game, no cast animation, guaranted damage assuming melee range
    GL E: Requires three separate casts (super negative mobility), can be blocked/miss, okay damage if all three hit

    Flash E: Potentially AoE slow, free tankiness, free stack of passive, no cast animation (yay, more mobility)
    GL W: A decent single-target slow, a cast animation

    Flash R: Invunerability, guaranteed at least one tick of damage!
    GL R: Another cast animation, not difficult to dodge!

    Flash Passive: Highly useful bonus movement speed!
    GL Passive: Completely useless heal!

    Flash Range: Melee
    GL Range: Not Melee

    See what it looks like when you just highlight the parts of the kit that help you make whatever point you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by JLA-Lyri View Post
    He may have high damage but Flash is a lot more manageable than people make him out to be.
    See, that's the problem. You seem to think that I'm complaining primarily about Flash's damage. I'm not. Sword of Beowolf won't stop the annoying hit and run patterns that I described in my first post.
    Last edited by Quincunx; 05-08-2014 at 10:54 PM.

  4. #84
    One With Starro JLA-Lyri's Avatar
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    Re: I've had it Flash. Nerf him some more, and disable him until then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quincunx View Post
    I can play this game too:

    Man, Flash and GL couldn't be more different!

    Flash Q: Extreme mobility
    GL Q: A cast animation (negative mobility)

    Flash W: Highest damage non-ultimate ability in the game, no cast animation, guaranted damage assuming melee range
    GL E: Requires three separate casts (super negative mobility), can be blocked/miss, okay damage if all three hit

    Flash E: Potentially AoE slow, free tankiness, free stack of passive, no cast animation (yay, more mobility)
    GL W: A decent single-target slow, a cast animation

    Flash R: Invunerability, guaranteed at least one tick of damage!
    GL R: Another cast animation, not difficult to dodge!

    Flash Passive: Highly useful bonus movement speed!
    GL Passive: Completely useless heal!

    Flash Range: Melee
    GL Range: Not Melee

    See what it looks like when you just highlight the parts of the kit that help you make whatever point you want?
    GL and Flash are played completely different, but the skills in their kit are almost the same. They're as close as you're going to get in the game and make a fairly solid comparison - you can be as awkward as you like about it or you could just find a kit that actually fits the discussion without being a dick and I'd be willing to go with it?
    Your choice.




    Quote Originally Posted by Quincunx View Post
    See, that's the problem. You seem to think that I'm complaining primarily about Flash's damage. I'm not. Sword of Beowolf won't stop the annoying hit and run patterns that I described in my first post.
    You are not the only person in this thread. That comment was not focused on you, so no that is not the problem.
    Last edited by JLA-Lyri; 05-08-2014 at 11:08 PM.
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  5. #85
    Joining Harmony KoH_Genericke's Avatar
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    Re: I've had it Flash. Nerf him some more, and disable him until then.

    Quote Originally Posted by JLA-Lyri View Post
    Their kits are pretty similar.

    Both Q - flat damage
    Flash W and GL E - multiple hit burst
    Flash E - GL W - Slow
    Both R - AOE ult
    Passive - Added damage based on secondary stat (speed/will respectively)

    They may play different roles but their kits are as close as the game allows.




    There are definitely items to counter him and win trades with him in the game - that fact is undisputable.
    Saying there is no counter play to him is patently false, Flash will build straight damage and all you need to do is get a sword of beowulf if you're AD or Neron's Contract if you're AP and with the former, he won't burst you down without putting up a shield, allowing you to trade and win.
    Nerons contract can be used when he ults to stand right in the middle and ignore it - Flash just used a 3rd of his damage output and did nothing - he doesn't even break the shield.

    People still aren't building the correct items to counter a Flash, people want to derp and let Flash get off his absurd damage and get away scot free because they build completely glass cannon because Dawnbase said that I should get Joechills and V9 on Cyborg!
    Completely ignoring the fact that you should build around counter play.

    He may have high damage but Flash is a lot more manageable than people make him out to be.
    Whenever I play Flash, if I see the enemy team build those ****ty items early on (SoB, and NC) I have two thoughts.

    1. That don't mean jack. I can still explode them.
    2. I don't even have to dash in and out to poke them down that way, because now their dueling power against me is even worse than it was before.

    Also, GL and Flash are alike in that they're AP champions with a lot of burst, and frankly that's as far of a comparison you can get in terms of similarity. The level you're comparing them at would be like claiming Atomic WW and Gaslight Catwoman are extremely similar because they're both AD champs with a tonne of gapclosing possibilities and burst damage. They play really differently, and would be picked for different reasons. If you really feel the need to draw comparisons, Nightmare Superman and Zatanna are the two most similar champs in the game right now - and even then there are enough differences in between them to make them situationally stronger over one another.

    The comparisons you do draw are irrelevant. Flash's W and GL's E being multiple hit burst doesn't make them similar. Atomic Green Lantern's R is also a multiple hit burst spell. Doesn't mean I'd ever claim that they're the same thing. GL's W is also a multiple hit burst spell, but I don't see you drawing this comparison. The fact that Flash's W synergizes with Blue Scarab/Psi Scimitar, and GL's E does not is enough of a difference to make them completely different spells. Flash getting 2 seconds of invulnerability during his ultimate is a pretty big difference in between him and GL. Their kits are alike in the same way that all marksmen are alike because they rely on autoattacks in order to do constant AD damage. Doesn't mean I'd say that all marksmen are the same champ.

    Still doesn't change the fact that Flash is OP.

  6. #86
    One With Starro JLA-Lyri's Avatar
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    Re: I've had it Flash. Nerf him some more, and disable him until then.

    Quote Originally Posted by KoH_Generick View Post
    Whenever I play Flash, if I see the enemy team build those ****ty items early on (SoB, and NC) I have two thoughts.

    1. That don't mean jack. I can still explode them.
    2. I don't even have to dash in and out to poke them down that way, because now their dueling power against me is even worse than it was before.

    Also, GL and Flash are alike in that they're AP champions with a lot of burst, and frankly that's as far of a comparison you can get in terms of similarity. The level you're comparing them at would be like claiming Atomic WW and Gaslight Catwoman are extremely similar because they're both AD champs with a tonne of gapclosing possibilities and burst damage. They play really differently, and would be picked for different reasons. If you really feel the need to draw comparisons, Nightmare Superman and Zatanna are the two most similar champs in the game right now - and even then there are enough differences in between them to make them situationally stronger over one another.

    The comparisons you do draw are irrelevant. Flash's W and GL's E being multiple hit burst doesn't make them similar. Atomic Green Lantern's R is also a multiple hit burst spell. Doesn't mean I'd ever claim that they're the same thing. GL's W is also a multiple hit burst spell, but I don't see you drawing this comparison. The fact that Flash's W synergizes with Blue Scarab/Psi Scimitar, and GL's E does not is enough of a difference to make them completely different spells. Flash getting 2 seconds of invulnerability during his ultimate is a pretty big difference in between him and GL. Their kits are alike in the same way that all marksmen are alike because they rely on autoattacks in order to do constant AD damage. Doesn't mean I'd say that all marksmen are the same champ.

    Still doesn't change the fact that Flash is OP.
    You know when you compare things they're not supposed to be identical right? I'm using the word similar and not identical for a reason. I'm not saying Flashs' ult and Green Lanterns are the same, they just perform a similar role and it puts them on an ok footing for comparison.

    Both champs have a nuke
    Both champs have a slow
    Both champs have shred
    Both champs have an aoe ultimate
    Both champs passive are +damage based on a secondary stat

    That is the comparison drawn, I'm not looking for identical kits here, they are similar in regards enough to compare them so we can see how Flash scales against another hero - it would hardly be fair to compare Flash to Zatananna or Star Sapphire because they do different jobs.
    GL is the closet champ comparison, kit wise.

    With that said - if you can find a kit that is close to flashes that is better than GL's to compare too, I would be happy to go through the maths and we can crunch numbers and see how he stacks. Otherwise, you can stop with the pointless naysaying, the comparison is done already.

    You can think what you like - Sword of Beowulf is a catch for flash burst, Contract is what you pop when Flash ults.
    They're applied differently and counter Flash in different ways - of course they're not the 100% answer but they help you keep him under control, win trades and ultimately beat him.

    If Flash ults and you have a nerons contract active ready - pop it and Flash doesn't do enough damage to break the shield. 1/3 of his burst has been negated.
    Sword of Beowulf helps ADCs stand there and trade blows with flash knowing they have a 400 dmg shield that will buffer their hp - Flash isn't durable, he can be burst down just as much as he can burst.
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  7. #87
    Joining Harmony Acerael's Avatar
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    Re: I've had it Flash. Nerf him some more, and disable him until then.

    I think the problem to the Flash is that he becomes invulnerable with an aoe damage.
    Perhaps he should only target one with an aoe damage?
    Basically make it smaller..
    That way the Flash can't burst everyone in a teamfight but only a single target that punishes anyone who comes close to the target aswell.. and maybe bring back the knockdown to anyone in the radius of the target..
    Or.. we can let him take out multiple target alone in a big lightning dome of destruction as he can do right now..
    This will priotize Flash to only focus single targets and with his low cooldowns, he can keep go taking enemies down 1 by 1, instead of Flash being able to take them down 5 in 1 go.
    Last edited by Acerael; 05-10-2014 at 06:49 AM.
    Team World's Finest seeks Top Laner & Adc/Support combo.

    Champion wishlist:
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    [ ] Nightwing - with Dick Grayson Robin skin ~ AD Assassin / AD Bruiser
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    [ ] Batgirl ~ AD Assassin / AD Controller
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    [ X ] Supergirl ~ AD Bruiser

  8. #88
    One With Starro JLA-Lyri's Avatar
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    Re: I've had it Flash. Nerf him some more, and disable him until then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acerael View Post
    I think the problem to the Flash is that he becomes invulnerable with an aoe damage.
    Perhaps he should only target one with an aoe damage?
    Basically make it smaller..
    That way the Flash can't burst everyone in a teamfight but only a single target that punishes anyone who comes close to the target aswell.. and maybe bring back the knockdown to anyone in the radius of the target..
    Or.. we can let him take out multiple target alone in a big lightning dome of destruction as he can do right now..
    This will priotize Flash to only focus single targets and with his low cooldowns, he can keep go taking enemies down 1 by 1, instead of Flash being able to take them down 5 in 1 go.
    If he only targets one then it isn't AOE damage.

    They need to fix the hitbox on his ult, it is way larger than it should be so sniping people is easy. That I agree too.
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  9. #89
    Joining Harmony KoH_Genericke's Avatar
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    Re: I've had it Flash. Nerf him some more, and disable him until then.

    You're annoying me because you just don't get it, and I'm debating on further replying to you because you're derailing this conversation in a way that isn't productive or meaningful in any way.

    Both champs have a nuke
    Both champs have a slow
    Both champs have shred
    Both champs have an aoe ultimate
    Both champs passive are +damage based on a secondary stat
    GL doesn't have a shred. Neither does Flash until he buys blue scarab. Based on these five criteria, Shazam is actually more similar to Flash than GL is.

    Your comparisons are ****ty, because blue scarab power armor shred + mobility is something you aren't taking into account with your comparison. In your initial math post you also didn't take into account the damage and ratio from blue scarab+psi scimitar. 25 power armor shred is a pretty big deal.

    NC doesn't work because Flash can cancel his ult, grab a health relic if he's worried about losing the trade, or wait for NC to be over and continue fighting anyways because of how much damage his q+w combo deals.

    SoB doesn't work because early game, you give up too much damage and Flash just duels you anyways and wins. Lategame Flash has enough damage to burn through the shield.

    But if you still doubt this, I would love to see JLA fight KoH and give us Flash. You can test your counter items in-game and maybe you'll get an understanding of why it is that they fail.

  10. #90

    Re: I've had it Flash. Nerf him some more, and disable him until then.

    Playing against a Flash leaves a bad taste in my mouth no matter what the circumstances. Something really needs to be done about him. It wouldn't be a problem if I didn't see him just about every game but I do and it almost makes me want to quit at least until a nerf comes in. I can't even take refuge in Divided because of the double Gambit travesty going on over there at the moment. It is very frustrating.

    Basically just venting here instead of actually contributing anything productive, don't mind me.

 

 

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