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  1. #1
    Considering Harmony
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    Two Face's Coin VS Joker's Crowbar !?

    No long and boring explanation, just facts:

    Both on max. Stacks:

    Two Face's Coin:
    100 PD (20 basic on the Coin + 80 max. Stack)
    10% CRD
    = total 1000 credits

    Joker's Crowbar:
    52 ATK DMG (12 basic + 40 max. Stack)
    10 Movement Speed
    = 1000 credits

    really Devs :/
    think Jokers Crowbar needs some love, right now its really a joke (ha ha ha ... )

  2. #2
    Protector Chaiftan's Avatar
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    Re: Two Face's Coin VS Joker's Crowbar !?

    I don't see your point. AD is nearly twice as valuable as PD and MS is about twice as valuable as CDR. These are fairly even.
    Yeah, um, uh... In Blackest Day or Brightest Night...
    Uh, watermelon, cantalope, yada yada...
    A superstitious and cowardly lot...
    With liberty and justice for all!
    -Duck Dodgers

  3. #3
    Joining Harmony awK_Pillatypus's Avatar
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    Re: Two Face's Coin VS Joker's Crowbar !?

    Promethium Mace - 30 AD
    Radion Shard - 50 PD

    Both are 1500g and the refundables so we can consider this a pretty decent comparable base line.

    30*1.67% = 50 so we can assume every 1 AD = 1.67 PD

    By this logic either Two face's should max out at 87 or Joker's Crowbar should scale up to 60 AD. (the bases are actually perfect the scaling is what is messed up)

    I think they should up the scaling of Crowbar so it maxes out at 60 AD and according to their own values it would balance out with Two Face's.
    Now if these are balanced values overall is a different question, but obviously something should be changed between these two items.
    twitch.tv/pillatypus

  4. #4
    Protector Chaiftan's Avatar
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    Re: Two Face's Coin VS Joker's Crowbar !?

    Quote Originally Posted by coL_Pillatypus View Post
    Promethium Mace - 30 AD
    Radion Shard - 50 PD

    Both are 1500g and the refundables so we can consider this a pretty decent comparable base line.

    30*1.67% = 50 so we can assume every 1 AD = 1.67 PD

    By this logic either Two face's should max out at 87 or Joker's Crowbar should scale up to 60 AD. (the bases are actually perfect the scaling is what is messed up)

    I think they should up the scaling of Crowbar so it maxes out at 60 AD and according to their own values it would balance out with Two Face's.
    Now if these are balanced values overall is a different question, but obviously something should be changed between these two items.
    Yeah, but at max stacks you have to consider 10% CDR versus 10 Move Speed bonuses. 1 point of MS > 1 point of CDR (as far as item pricing goes, not necessarily my opinion).

    *Not defending the bonuses, stacking, or other variables.
    Yeah, um, uh... In Blackest Day or Brightest Night...
    Uh, watermelon, cantalope, yada yada...
    A superstitious and cowardly lot...
    With liberty and justice for all!
    -Duck Dodgers

  5. #5
    Joining Harmony awK_Pillatypus's Avatar
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    Re: Two Face's Coin VS Joker's Crowbar !?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaiftan View Post
    Yeah, but at max stacks you have to consider 10% CDR versus 10 Move Speed bonuses. 1 point of MS > 1 point of CDR (as far as item pricing goes, not necessarily my opinion).

    *Not defending the bonuses, stacking, or other variables.
    I'm not sure of MS vs CDR, but that is very likely true. I think it'd make most sense to have the stats equal each other and the max stack bonuses also be equal, but maybe thats just me.
    twitch.tv/pillatypus

  6. #6
    Joining Harmony Geck0's Avatar
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    Re: Two Face's Coin VS Joker's Crowbar !?

    Something to consider is PD doesn't effect basic attacks while AD does. On abilities that scale off of AD it helps their abilities AND the basic attacks. Unless I am missing something I think a lower AD equivalent item is better for balance imo.

  7. #7
    Community Advocate Paradigm's Avatar
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    Re: Two Face's Coin VS Joker's Crowbar !?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geck0 View Post
    Something to consider is PD doesn't effect basic attacks while AD does. On abilities that scale off of AD it helps their abilities AND the basic attacks. Unless I am missing something I think a lower AD equivalent item is better for balance imo.
    Power Damage effects auto attacks on turrets, but that's about it (as long as you're not MWW or have Blue Scarab)

  8. #8
    Joining Harmony RealName's Avatar
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    Re: Two Face's Coin VS Joker's Crowbar !?

    Quote Originally Posted by coL_Pillatypus View Post
    Promethium Mace - 30 AD
    Radion Shard - 50 PD

    Both are 1500g and the refundables so we can consider this a pretty decent comparable base line.

    30*1.67% = 50 so we can assume every 1 AD = 1.67 PD

    By this logic either Two face's should max out at 87 or Joker's Crowbar should scale up to 60 AD. (the bases are actually perfect the scaling is what is messed up)

    I think they should up the scaling of Crowbar so it maxes out at 60 AD and according to their own values it would balance out with Two Face's.
    Now if these are balanced values overall is a different question, but obviously something should be changed between these two items.
    Agreed, it feels to me at least, that Joker's crowbar isn't a bad item, but i'll pass from it with many AD champions at least in comparison with the Two Face's which you can basically use it with every PD champ (not the best option sometimes, but still you can and it you won't hurt)

    -Taking in consideration that the Two face's top is +80 and each power stack is 2 and Joker's 40 but 1, makes it basically even on ¨time resource¨ you'll have your joker's full by the time you'd had your Two Face's, therefore the mods are what come in play here (45 secs for stack seem the way to go for two face's, but after using the 45 secs per stack mod on joker's i'm starting to doubt if the ¨2 stacks per assist/kill¨ is the best for it but i'm not sure yet and that's a very specific thing)

    -With that said, i feel like Joker's should be 60 attack as Pilla said, adding 5 to the base item attack (12+5) and adding 5 to the aditional attack gained (40+5) and with this i would even add a +0.20 on each stack making it a bit faster to get (1.20 per stack --> 45/1.2 = 37.5, sounds fair since it used to be 40 or 1.10 (if you feel like being anal ) --> 45/1.1 = 40.90 But i would have to say the 1.2 seems better)

    -Because let's just think about it, even if that item is cheaper (1000 credits for 52 attack) unless you really want that extra 10 speed (which will hit pretty late) there's no reason to get it, i much rather put a ¨credits off mod¨ on some attack item and get the attack faster instead of the Joker's mod (since.. if you're gonna use it, then you NEED a mod)

    I hope this happens soon since almost no one uses that item.
    Last edited by RealName; 05-23-2014 at 09:50 AM. Reason: 6 am when i did this post, now that i look at it again, it's 12 + 60 and i was implying 12+50 instead of 12 + 40, lol

  9. #9
    Protector Unilord's Avatar
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    Re: Two Face's Coin VS Joker's Crowbar !?

    I think they should up the scaling of Crowbar so it maxes out at 60 AD and according to their own values it would balance out with Two Face's.
    I think they should do the opposite and scale down the PD of Coin, that item with mod is just too good, I expect lots of threads complaining about it as soon as the gambit fever stops.

  10. #10
    Joining Harmony RealName's Avatar
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    Re: Two Face's Coin VS Joker's Crowbar !?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unilord View Post
    I think they should do the opposite and scale down the PD of Coin, that item with mod is just too good, I expect lots of threads complaining about it as soon as the gambit fever stops.
    I don't think it's ¨just too good¨ it's more on the field of: Good players use it, because they got to that level, yeah many new players may go to dawnbase, or just copy it from the flash that ownd them but that wont make them/it good, it's just a good item that needs to be in pair with the Joker's Crowbar and.. Crime bible for health as well but no complains there, there's no difference in ¨nerfing¨ something when you can balance things out, without doing it

 

 

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