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  1. #11
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    Re: Two Face's Coin VS Joker's Crowbar !?

    Quote Originally Posted by RealName View Post
    With that said, i feel like Joker's should be 60 attack as Pilla said, adding 5 to the base item attack (12+5) and adding 5 to the aditional attack gained (40+5) and with this i would even add a +0.20 on each stack making it a bit faster to get (1.20 per stack --> 45/1.2 = 37.5, sounds fair since it used to be 40 or 1.10 (if you feel like being anal ) --> 45/1.1 = 40.90 But i would have to say the 1.2 seems better)
    Are you suggesting tier 2 starts off with 5 attack damage? Because that would make the item a no brainer to get. Unmodded, that's 7 and a half minutes of stacks for free. Not only that, but considering how 12 AD = 500 credits, 5 would equal a little over 200. So you are paying less than 300 for the keyword, which is unreasonably good, plus you want to speed up the rate at which you acquire points?

    Also, Going off memory here, but at max stacks you get 10 movespeed. Tier 1 of the speed battery gets you 10 movespeed at a cost of 500 credits.

    The item is balanced with TFC already in terms of credits spent for stats acquired.

    IMO, Movespeed is the problem with it. A better comparison to CDR for AD champs is attack speed. I'd like to see the max damage on both items brought down a little and balanced, and the bonus for Joker's crowbar to be AS (equalling the CDR of TFC) instead.
    Yeah, um, uh... In Blackest Day or Brightest Night...
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  2. #12
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    Re: Two Face's Coin VS Joker's Crowbar !?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaiftan View Post
    Are you suggesting tier 2 starts off with 5 attack damage? Because that would make the item a no brainer to get. Unmodded, that's 7 and a half minutes of stacks for free. Not only that, but considering how 12 AD = 500 credits, 5 would equal a little over 200. So you are paying less than 300 for the keyword, which is unreasonably good, plus you want to speed up the rate at which you acquire points?

    Also, Going off memory here, but at max stacks you get 10 movespeed. Tier 1 of the speed battery gets you 10 movespeed at a cost of 500 credits.

    The item is balanced with TFC already in terms of credits spent for stats acquired.

    IMO, Movespeed is the problem with it. A better comparison to CDR for AD champs is attack speed. I'd like to see the max damage on both items brought down a little and balanced, and the bonus for Joker's crowbar to be AS (equalling the CDR of TFC) instead.
    I would have to disagree in every aspect, except on 1 but still i can defend, coda blade is 1000 credits and gives you 25 attack, is that a no brainer ? (obviously we're both talking of Gotham Heights) 17 attack (that would be 18 since the second you start the game is when the stacks start counting) doesn't seem that big, and even if it is then... Fine i do understand your point, but, it was just a suggestion, you're acting as if my post was the total end of the discussion, and the future of Joker's Crowbar.

    1-You made a bad calculation there, because you say ¨plus you want to speed up the rate at which you acquire points?¨ that's wrong, i said that if you give the item more stacks then you inevitable need to speed up the ¨rate at which you acquire points¨ to keep it the same... *facepalm* not that i want it to be faster... did you even read the whole thing?

    2-You're missing a big point here, first of all movement speed is better for AD champions as cooldown is better for PD, example being catwoman prime, why would i want to have attack speed with her? or superman, yeah you can go for it, it wont hurt, but meeh, there are plenty ¨Attack Speed¨ items for AD champs, i mean Velocity implants gives you 40% ! (and it's btw the only one that gives you movement speed, unless you count Bat's Belt, which Also gives you attack speed) Claymore 25% Mega Rod 30%, my point is 10% attack speed isn't all that great and not an universal choice, as CDR is for Power and Move Speed for attack.
    Now, you are making a calculation based on wrong terms, the fact that the ¨Speed Battery¨ grants you 10 movement speed for tier 1 at 500 doesn't mean 10 Move Speed costs 500 credits, you know why ? because when you buy an item unless you're planning to sell it which it's a mediocre move (it's fine on gambits, for credits stacks lol) or you're just going for a ¨fun build¨, you are actually investing into the next tier which is ¨Blink Jump¨ That's all you're paying for on the Speed battery you're not buying move speed you're buying the ¨Blink Jump¨ if that item had only move speed the first tier would be 250 easily.. maybe divided on 3 tiers, but let's not get into hypothetical things (because such item will never exist), and back to the subject, 10 move speed it's fine, and as i said before, by the time you get all the stacks on Joker's Crowbar it will be 10+ mins into the game (that is if you're owning AND you have a mod) usually it's between 10-15 even more if you're doing bad or the whole team is.

    3- I don't see the point in bringing both down... it would make them useless, people like yourself just make mathematical thoughts and go: ¨100 power and 10% CDR for 1000 credit?!? That's OP nerf nerf¨ when it's just a balance that is integrated on the flow of the game... those items are perfect for ¨Carry¨ roles since they inevitable will make you weaker early game, but they will pay off with time, and both the Move Speed, and Cooldown, will hit pretty late just when you need it, if you're winning or loosing it can give you that mini-boost you need to come back or on the other scenario finish off.

    P.S: A post before me suggested to increase the scale to 60 making it 12 as base + 60 stacking = 72, i think the sweet spot it's at 50 that would be a total of 62, as it is for now we have a 52 attack item that takes around 13-16 minutes to grant it, just think about it, how many times you see the Two Face's on games compared to Joker's Crowbar ? Now, that answer! is a no brainer.

    I do appreciate your response and i'm glad people talk about this, because at the end of the day, that's all what we're doing, drawing attention to something, all our comments will be taking in consideration but none of them will be the final response from the team

    UPDATE: I just tried the Joker's Crowbar w/mod (2 stacks per kill) and even if i was 10-0-3, 10 minutes into the game, i barely had 28-32 on the stacks so 10 minutes is totally out of the question it's more like 15-20 (in regards of what i said before, taking in consideration that you may do worst, kinda hard to do better, unless the enemy is terrible, which they weren't, they were simply average) See ya.
    Last edited by RealName; 05-24-2014 at 08:31 AM. Reason: Update

  3. #13
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    Re: Two Face's Coin VS Joker's Crowbar !?

    I'm not talking about GH alone, I'm talking about the whole game. The harvest items are gamble items, giving you stats right off the bat reduces the gamble.

    1. I read, perhaps you are the one that doesn't understand what you suggested. If you get a higher amount of AD with each stack, you will be acquiring AD at a faster rate. I said points (as in AD), not stacks.

    2. The harvest items are for Carries and every item isn't supposed to be universal. Your example of why AS is inferior to MS is pretty dumb since you listed Cat Prime, who is a blaster, and would rather have CDR than MS anyway. That's like saying TFC is a bad item for Shazam, because he doesn't really need CDR so it needs to be changed. Plus Speed Battery is a valid item. Stats have value, the only time you see levels of items that are inferior, there is a Mod for that level.

    3. They would be far from useless with less damage. I propose dropping the max stacks down and focus on the end bonuses. Maybe even take out the faster stack generation mods and add mods that buff the full build item (ex. TFC gets to what would normally be max stacks (say 30), You get the bonus 10 CDR, plus 5 extra stacks increasing CDR by 1% each stack as well as PD OR another mod that also adds MS to the fully built item).
    Yeah, um, uh... In Blackest Day or Brightest Night...
    Uh, watermelon, cantalope, yada yada...
    A superstitious and cowardly lot...
    With liberty and justice for all!
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  4. #14
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    Re: Two Face's Coin VS Joker's Crowbar !?

    ¨ If you get a higher amount of AD with each stack, you will be acquiring AD at a faster rate¨ lol if you augment the amount of final attack damage (in this case from 40 to 50) you need to augment the quantity of stacks per point, plain and simple, i never suggested to simply augment the speed for no reason, it's a simple math calculation, if you gain 1 attack dmg each 90 seconds for a total of 40 attack it's the exact same as 2 power damage each 90 seconds for 80 in total (on the Two Face's) therefore if we augment the Joker's to 45 or 50 you simply need to augment the ammount of attack that you gain each 90 seconds. why is this so hard to understand?

    -I see many cat primes with Joker's crowbar, and carry isn't a type of champion, you can build a mecha supes as carry xD, even if it's not the best on the utopical sense of the game, besides you only take 1 example of why is better ? oohh.. good, forget the rest ( like the fact that there's many AS items when there's barely any MS ones, for AD champs that is, which is a much stronger argument and possibly the reason why it's MS instead of AS) btw CDR is quite good on shazam.

    -¨Plus Speed Battery is a valid item. Stats have value, the only time you see levels of items that are inferior, there is a Mod for that level.¨ wait, what ? i don't see any correlation with what i said...

    -Regarding 3: Fair enough that's your oppinion and i respect it

  5. #15
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    Re: Two Face's Coin VS Joker's Crowbar !?

    - My point was- think of the item were it currently stands. If you stuck 5 extra damage on it and increased the amount you get per stack, it'd be kind of ridiculous. If you just increased the amount you get per stack, that'd be one thing.

    - Contradictions is what I see here. You took one example of why it wasn't good and one of why it's only ok. MS versus AS is gonna vary team comp to team comp and champ to champ, obviously, but one constant is that wave clear and attacking towers is going to benefit with AS over MS and end game (where there are more teamfights), most champs are going to benefit with the attack speed over the movement speed. I'm not even factoring in GH for this item, because I think the harvest and collector items should be a little discouraged on that map. The one reason why you see a lot of TFC on GH, is because it has the second highest amount of PD of all the items. Crowbar has less damage probably because the AD:PD ratio isn't an even number so it's hard to get the stacks right without using fractions. If you want to have comparable damage on the items, you'd have to nerf the MS on Crowbar to equal the CDR on TFC.

    - Speed Battery's tier 1 is the best benchmark for determining the value of move speed. I haven't looked through all of the items to make sure that the value holds accurate, because I have other things I could be doing, but it's the only item with MS only. If you want to go through all the items and tell us what MSs true credit value is, be my guest.
    Yeah, um, uh... In Blackest Day or Brightest Night...
    Uh, watermelon, cantalope, yada yada...
    A superstitious and cowardly lot...
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  6. #16
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    Re: Two Face's Coin VS Joker's Crowbar !?

    ¨ My point was- think of the item were it currently stands. If you stuck 5 extra damage on it and increased the amount you get per stack, it'd be kind of ridiculous. If you just increased the amount you get per stack, that'd be one thing.¨

    I'm not gonna explain this 30 times ---> 40 / 1 = 80 / 2 okay ? therefore if you add 5 or 10 you HAVE to increase the number, that being 1.1 or 1.2 in order to match with 80 / 2 ... easy

    - I don't see why you keep talking about champions and AS when my bigger point is the ammount of AS that is available on the store

    - Sure it's the best if you want it to be, that does not make it correct.

    Enough said

  7. #17
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    Re: Two Face's Coin VS Joker's Crowbar !?

    NO SH!T DUDE. Re-read your first post. You said tier 2 would grant 5 AD plus 1.2 per stack. OK, are we on the same page? After 40 stacks you will have 48 AD FROM STACKS ALONE, plus 5, plus 12. That, if you graduated from the same schools as me, equals 65 AD. ARE WE STILL ON THE SAME PAGE? If you plug that into the AD:PD ratio that is 108.6 points on Crowbar versus the 100 points on TFC. That is why I said it is OP and that is why I said starting with 5 points for no reason, doesn't make sense.

    Now if there were only 37.5 (37? 38?) stacks to be obtained, like YOU SAID IN YOUR FIRST POST, you would IN-FACT get to fully stacked faster (LIKE I SAID).

    1.2 is actually a good multiplier for stacks, except that it is a fraction. 2 PD equals roughly 1.2 AD. Which is why there wouldn't be a need to add 5 points to anything.

    Currently the AD:PD ratio for the two items is 86.something AD and 100 points PD. That is justified if you consider 10 Move Speed to be more valuable than 10 CDR.

    If the ratios were aligned, then the bonus couldn't remain as they are. Do you see? Can we now agree on this one thing here?
    Yeah, um, uh... In Blackest Day or Brightest Night...
    Uh, watermelon, cantalope, yada yada...
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  8. #18
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    Re: Two Face's Coin VS Joker's Crowbar !?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaiftan View Post
    NO SH!T DUDE. Re-read your first post. You said tier 2 would grant 5 AD plus 1.2 per stack. OK, are we on the same page? After 40 stacks you will have 48 AD FROM STACKS ALONE, plus 5, plus 12. That, if you graduated from the same schools as me, equals 65 AD. ARE WE STILL ON THE SAME PAGE? If you plug that into the AD:PD ratio that is 108.6 points on Crowbar versus the 100 points on TFC. That is why I said it is OP and that is why I said starting with 5 points for no reason, doesn't make sense.

    Now if there were only 37.5 (37? 38?) stacks to be obtained, like YOU SAID IN YOUR FIRST POST, you would IN-FACT get to fully stacked faster (LIKE I SAID).

    1.2 is actually a good multiplier for stacks, except that it is a fraction. 2 PD equals roughly 1.2 AD. Which is why there wouldn't be a need to add 5 points to anything.

    Currently the AD:PD ratio for the two items is 86.something AD and 100 points PD. That is justified if you consider 10 Move Speed to be more valuable than 10 CDR.

    If the ratios were aligned, then the bonus couldn't remain as they are. Do you see? Can we now agree on this one thing here?
    Your math are terrible, because you say 48 when that first suggestion was +5 on basic and +5 on max that means the max attack is 45 therefore 1.2 * 40 = 48 that's right! aww you advanced from 5th grade ? but you don't seem to understand that if you lock an item it won't go further 45 therefore it will just be slightly faster, and BTW!! right after i said that, i stated that to make it perfect it would have to be 1.1 per stack!!! you're just dismantling my posts, making wrong calculations, being rude, blind, and a very annoying person to chat with.

    ¨You said tier 2 would grant 5 AD plus 1.2 per stack¨ that was a suggestion (and i'm talking about the +5 on the basic) the 1.2 is perfect if the max is 50 (taking away the +5 on the basic and giving it to the max Attack granted, and that gives us 41.666 in fact it should be a little more like 1.25 because 50 / 1.25 = 40).

    As it is for now we have 52 attack that will be granted around 13-17 minutes into the game, when 10 MS isn't AS valuable as you think since by that time everyone moves pretty fast, a GL joker with Kryptonian War Armor (this item grants +30 Move Speed) will be faster since everyone's move speed scales when you level up! (as many other things do) geez... and MVS>CDR ? yes that's YOUR opinion and no one else's, if you ask me, that's not correct, there's a limit on the Champions CDR and i think it's pretty obvious why...
    But that doesn't even matter (CDR vs MS) the fact here is that i'm barely suggesting a +10 attack on that item and you're feeling so fragile about it that... it really amazes me, you really should try to control your adrenaline on the internet and take a minute to read things instead of jump into a forum brawl, because you can't handle your emotions.

    I'm being respectful, giving options and trying to talk about a subject, and the only thing you've done so far is trying to shut me down, with no real or consistent thoughts nor explanations, just random rants with no real facts, and lots of mathematical confusions.
    Last edited by RealName; 05-25-2014 at 08:31 AM.

  9. #19
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    Re: Two Face's Coin VS Joker's Crowbar !?

    Your math are terrible, because you say 48 when that first suggestion was +5 on basic and +5 on max that means the max attack is 45 therefore 1.2 * 40 = 48 that's right!
    Sigh... 12+5=17 45+17=62
    AD:PD ratio= 103.54(JCB):100(TFC)
    That's pretty close, except that starting out with 5 AD for no reason is OP. Especially on the first tier, if that's what "basic" means to you.

    but you don't seem to understand[/B] that if you lock an item it won't go further 45 therefore it will just be slightly faster, and BTW!! right after i said that, i stated that to make it perfect it would have to be 1.1 per stack!!!
    40*1.1=44
    Yay, perfect? Even if it was... it's still slightly higher than TFC ratio. Plus the 5 points for no reason. Plus, and I'm still not stating it as my personal opinion, rather how Turbine has items optimized, MS>CDR in terms of credits.


    ¨You said tier 2 would grant 5 AD plus 1.2 per stack¨ that was a suggestion (and i'm talking about the +5 on the basic) the 1.2 is perfect if the max is 50 (taking away the +5 on the basic and giving it to the max Attack granted, and that gives us 41.666 in fact it should be a little more like 1.25 because 50 / 1.25 = 40).
    Why are you making this dumber than it needs to be. Why is your argument not:

    Tier 1: 12 AD
    Tier 2: 12 AD (plus 1.2 per 90 seconds maximum stacks = 40 (48 AD)

    That's 60. Which is the perfect ratio with the current TFC.


    As it is for now we have 52 attack that will be granted around 13-17 minutes into the game, when 10 MS isn't AS valuable as you think since by that time everyone moves pretty fast, a GL joker with Kryptonian War Armor (this item grants +30 Move Speed) will be faster since everyone's move speed scales when you level up! (as many other things do) geez... and MVS>CDR ? yes that's YOUR opinion and no one else's, if you ask me, that's not correct, there's a limit on the Champions CDR and i think it's pretty obvious why...
    It's not my opinion. I am not the one that assigned value to stats. Turbine did. If you want to go back to the first page, I clearly said that it's not my opinion.

    +10 attack on that item and you're feeling so fragile about it that... it really amazes me, you really should try to control your adrenaline on the internet and take a minute to read things instead of jump into a forum brawl, because you can't handle your emotions.
    I told you that the plus 5 AD didn't make sense and you got defensive. You are the one that can't handle being peer reviewed.

    I'm being respectful, giving options and trying to talk about a subject, and the only thing you've done so far is trying to shut me down, with no real or consistent thoughts nor explanations, just random rants with no real facts, and lots of mathematical confusions.
    That is your opinion. I stated facts, explanations and accurate math and you said it's not legit. The only opinion I gave, was that plus 5 AD is OP. And I explained why. Especially if you want it on tier 1, which I didn't even realize that's what you were trying to say. 17 AD for 500 credits would be the strongest starting item by far. Please stop attempting to make this personal.
    Yeah, um, uh... In Blackest Day or Brightest Night...
    Uh, watermelon, cantalope, yada yada...
    A superstitious and cowardly lot...
    With liberty and justice for all!
    -Duck Dodgers

  10. #20
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    Re: Two Face's Coin VS Joker's Crowbar !?

    I'm done with this nonsense, let's just stop this, and let anyone who wants read the entire thing to understand it, but just to clarify, where did i say ¨Especially if you want it on tier 1, which I didn't even realize that's what you were trying to say¨ i never even talked about tiers, and that's obviously for tier 2.

    And you called it no brainer OP, that is kind of an attack since it was just a thought, and after your first response i said on my first post back to you ¨17 attack (that would be 18 since the second you start the game is when the stacks start counting) doesn't seem that big, and even if it is then... Fine i do understand your point¨ but seems i didn't say that, and kept pushing it right? and also for tier 1! sure... keep being delusional and a control freak who wants to act like a child having always the last word for no reason and going crazy on Capital letters. Good bye

 

 

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