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  1. #81

    Re: Introducing Amplifier Sets

    Quote Originally Posted by Stez007 View Post
    ...I'm not sure how you got "excited" from this thread. I think it's pretty clear most of us are repulsed by the idea. Mods are the only interesting part, and I still say they only make itemization balancing that much more difficult.
    You think most of us are repulsed by the idea? No. Just no.

    I think you've fallen into the same trap as some other posters here of deluding yourself into thinking you speak for the masses because you agree with a few other people who are complaining on a forum.

    The vast majority of players don't engage in discussions on a game's forums. Forums are the haven for the very vocal minority. Congratulations, you think you agree with a small portion of the vocal minority.

    The problem is, you really don't. My impression of this thread is that most people aren't "repulsed by the idea" at all. Rather, it looks like posters have raised a few issues with the augments:

    1. Some don't want to have a heavy grind to collect them. This is understandable, but quite premature given the prices and merit accumulation rates are far from finalized. And, as others have pointed out, what some see as a grind, others see as an incentive to play more. More people playing more means shorter queue times, better matchmaking, and a more diverse group of opponents to face. All good things, imo.

    2. Some don't want people to be able to buy them with real money, resulting in a pay-to-win advantage. This has been addressed by the developers. Augments can only be purchased with merit.

    3. Some don't want out-of-game factors to influence the game. That's certainly a valid opinion, but it's not an opinion I share. I love every possible avenue of customization a game like this can give me. I also happen to love the level of detail-oriented strategy some pre-planned bonuses can add to a moba. You claim that it's entirely illusory and that there's only one optimal build per champ, but I strongly disagree. In a well-designed system, there should be a variety of equally effective options and combinations of options. It's up to the devs to make sure that happens, and it's WAY too early to presume that they can't.

    Nowhere in there do I get the impression that "most of us" are anything resembling "repulsed" by turbine's ideas. So not only have you incorrectly suggested that you speak for the majority, but you've completely misrepresented the "majority's" viewpoint.

    Poor effort.

    -GK

  2. #82
    Considering Harmony NekkiBasara's Avatar
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    Re: Introducing Amplifier Sets

    IC is my first MOBA, so I can't speak of LoL, DotA, Runes, etc. But I can say this. I love customizing my characters in games. From my first experiences with CoH to the ME trilogy deciding what my character looks like, sounds like, how they move, how they play, and so on has become an absolutely essential component of games I play.

    Now while I expect it will take time for cosmetic options to be created and implemented in this game(Art assets, VO work takes time after all.) I am more than looking forward to customizing champions to fit my play style. To give an example I have always enjoyed playing what this game labels as enforcers and support. If a statistical customization system like these 'Amplifiers' and 'Mods' can let me reinforce Wonder Woman's durability or shore up Atomic Wonder Woman's squishiness to better fit my love of protracted slug fests than mission accomplished.

    I guess what I'm saying is build these Amplifiers and Mods to allow us to fit champions to a given play style, not as a means of progression.

  3. #83

    Re: Introducing Amplifier Sets

    Did everyone forget this is closed beta? This is where they can try these things out see if they work? You are doing nothing but speculating as to how runes/amplifiers will effect the game. You are guessing. In many cases, you are saying "These will be unbalanced" because a different game could not correctly balance. You get a really boring game if you say "don't do anything difficult, you might mess up".

    Will they unbalance things? Will they make it better? More strategy and meta-gam or just another grind? We don't know. If only there was a way they could test these things out in a community prior to major release...some sort of beta or something to make sure things work right.

    I'm saddened at the "I can't believe they are ruining this game I quit" posts. Its not released yet. Want it to be better? You stay, you play, and when something is implemented you provide constructive criticism to make the game better. They don't need a stress test for whining. They need comments to make the game better.

    I welcome something like the amplifiers. Lets see how they work. I like more strategy, more meta, more things to differentiate characters. I enjoy the game so far and have some faith that they can implement a system without it being broken. If I thought they didn't understand balance at all, I wouldn't be playing to begin with.

    Could it result in things being broken? Of course. So lets deal with that now as we play this free game that we are lucky to have the opportunity to play.

  4. #84

    Re: Introducing Amplifier Sets

    This is another in a long line of missteps they've been taking over a long course of time. This will continue into release and while a lot of people will blindly hop into play and not realize what's going on those that do will have been smarter for it.

    Adding the ability to buy things with real money before the beta ended? Bad idea. Giving early access if you bought a package and then releasing said map what, a week or two later? Why?

    This new gambit of "The Amplifier Sets" reminds me of Super Monday Night Combat. If you are not in the know, that is a bad thing. What the heck does "+0.0108 attack speed" even MEAN? Furthermore, basically forcing you to buy a handful of these "amplifiers" that are item specific cuts down on functionality brute forcing people into "Core Builds". Otherwise known as every game you will buy this item because it's cheaper or gives you even more crit or damage or health or. An immediate problem with this is that there is no counterplay whatsoever. If X item is always going to be hundreds of credits cheaper, short of denying every gold piece there's nothing you can do to stop that.

    I "get" that it is a beta test, but there is no reason to defend poor decision making. There have been multiple poor decisions for a while and I expect them to continue into the future. Short of listening to those that are not the loudest. Video game history continues to prove that the loudest voices are not what the majority believes.

    So whatevs. Given how much champions cost right now, and given how little you're given a game, I expect amplifiers will fall right in line with "too expensive" and "too much of a grind" and "tilting the balance out of whack even further" and if they cost anything but in-game credits, broken.

  5. #85
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    Re: Introducing Amplifier Sets

    Quote Originally Posted by GiantKiller View Post
    You think most of us are repulsed by the idea? No. Just no.

    I think you've fallen into the same trap as some other posters here of deluding yourself into thinking you speak for the masses because you agree with a few other people who are complaining on a forum.

    The vast majority of players don't engage in discussions on a game's forums. Forums are the haven for the very vocal minority. Congratulations, you think you agree with a small portion of the vocal minority.

    The problem is, you really don't. My impression of this thread is that most people aren't "repulsed by the idea" at all. Rather, it looks like posters have raised a few issues with the augments:

    1. Some don't want to have a heavy grind to collect them. This is understandable, but quite premature given the prices and merit accumulation rates are far from finalized. And, as others have pointed out, what some see as a grind, others see as an incentive to play more. More people playing more means shorter queue times, better matchmaking, and a more diverse group of opponents to face. All good things, imo.

    2. Some don't want people to be able to buy them with real money, resulting in a pay-to-win advantage. This has been addressed by the developers. Augments can only be purchased with merit.

    3. Some don't want out-of-game factors to influence the game. That's certainly a valid opinion, but it's not an opinion I share. I love every possible avenue of customization a game like this can give me. I also happen to love the level of detail-oriented strategy some pre-planned bonuses can add to a moba. You claim that it's entirely illusory and that there's only one optimal build per champ, but I strongly disagree. In a well-designed system, there should be a variety of equally effective options and combinations of options. It's up to the devs to make sure that happens, and it's WAY too early to presume that they can't.

    Nowhere in there do I get the impression that "most of us" are anything resembling "repulsed" by turbine's ideas. So not only have you incorrectly suggested that you speak for the majority, but you've completely misrepresented the "majority's" viewpoint.

    Poor effort.

    -GK
    First off, way to be an *******. Good job with that.

    Second off, you clearly misunderstand why people are indeed repulsed by the idea.

    It's not the grind, it's not the remote possibility of paying with real money and it's not about out-of-game factors influencing the game.

    Systems like these only give the illusion of customization, when in reality there will always only be one optimal set that everyone will need to use in order to be competitive. It'll take a week or so for the top level players to determine the optimal sets and another week for those sets to trickle down to every single player, after which all "customization" aspects will be rendered moot. If people choose to use non-optimal sets then they are gimping themselves. If Catwoman is mathematically and practically strongest with flat Attack Armor Penetration augments then every Catwoman guide will recommend them, which means everyone looking to play Catwoman will get them and tell their friends that want to play Catwoman to get them, whom in turn will tell their friends to get them and so on and so forth until it's the universally accepted practice.

    It will happen that way and Turbine knows it will, but they're going through with it regardless. It'd be a lot better for the game if, instead of adding power through augments and mods, they put those stats onto the champions and items themselves. That eliminates every problem outlined; it's a damn shame that it won't actually happen.

    If you'd actually read this and the other (now closed) thread you'd know that the majority of posters think it's a horrid idea. The sample size is enough to convince any statistician that the majority of players that have heard the news dislike it. We've seen how this works, we know we don't want it. Even if it's "okay" it's still unwanted. End of story.

    Poor effort.
    Last edited by Stez007; 10-12-2013 at 01:19 AM.

  6. #86

    Re: Introducing Amplifier Sets

    I enjoy the idea, but I hope...

    1: It doesn't take FOREVER to accrue the merit needed to buy the runes (considering that money seems better spent on champions).
    2: There's a mode that doesn't implement runes. A problem when first getting into LOL was their rune system. COMPLETE and UTTER turnoff for new players. Requires much, MUCH too much mindless research. You can't even jungle in LOL when you first play the game unless you unlock certain runes that allow it (or at least it's nigh impossible for all but one or two characters until you do). If you want to attract players, make this seperate mode. Then once they unlock runes through it, they can take the time to look them over AFTER they're familiar with the game and join the mode that uses them, for more variation in play.

  7. #87
    Protector Xoulrath's Avatar
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    Re: Introducing Amplifier Sets

    Quote Originally Posted by Stez007 View Post
    Systems like these only give the illusion of customization, when in reality there will always only be one optimal set that everyone will need to use in order to be competitive. It'll take a week or so for the top level players to determine the optimal sets and another week for those sets to trickle down to every single player, after which all "customization" aspects will be rendered moot. If people choose to use non-optimal sets then they are gimping themselves. If Catwoman is mathematically and practically strongest with flat Attack Armor Penetration augments then every Catwoman guide will recommend them, which means everyone looking to play Catwoman will get them and tell their friends that want to play Catwoman to get them, whom in turn will tell their friends to get them and so on and so forth until it's the universally accepted practice.
    There will only be one truly optimal build whether amplifiers/mods are in the game or not. Because there will be one build that is mathematically superior.

    Where the customization comes in is when you decide to make Batman more of an early game assassin, which can (and should) hurt his mid and late game. This logic can be applied to any Champion.

    The only way to truly get the customization that you seem to be looking for would be to do away with Champion types and make all baseline stats the same. Then the players build each character from the ground up as they play. That of course, would make for a horrid game.

  8. #88
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    Re: Introducing Amplifier Sets

    You seem to think I actually want customization. I don't, I think it screws with balance. The illusion of customization, though, is even worse as it makes people think there will be more than one optimal build when there clearly is not.

    Items aren't an illusion of customization due to being very large power spikes; you can build Catwoman with crit items instead of armor pen and it'll change her gameplay due to just how much stats items actually give. Amplifiers won't give the same massive amount of stats--if they did, the power difference between the haves and have-nots would be astronomical--and thus won't change a champion's playstyle the same way items could. Small stats do add up, but not in the same way; whereas building a champion for AD and lifesteal could make him play very differently than the same champion build for crit and AS due to the drastic stat differences, "runing" a champion for a small amount of penetration instead of a small amount of damage only affects that champion's min/maxed efficiency. For that reason there can be several different strong item builds but there will always only be one optimal amplifier set.

  9. #89
    Considering Harmony KyRoS37's Avatar
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    Re: Introducing Amplifier Sets

    I like customization, I don't like insane grinds. If they can pull it off in a reasonable fashion that doesn't take 100+ hours of gameplay, then that's all cool. But if they go the LoL route (and let's be real, they have in almost all regards), then you can expect every MC you grind from 1-30 to be used for amplifies if you want to be top tiered. Now this can be thwarted somewhat if they give EVERYONE in retail the 1 or 2 "default" sets. That at least gives you something. But in LoL, if you didn't have the rune sets, you were at a serious disadvantage. So far, IC has shown that they not only want to follow the LoL business model, but they want to be even more expensive. I'm not sure how well that will relate for players who can download DOTA 2 and get 100 champions for free.

    Don't get me wrong, this is the MOBA game that I like the most by far. I have no interest in DOTA 2 and games like Dawngate are oK, but haven't pulled me in like this game. I've dumped $100 so far in belief that this game will be awesome, and it has been so far. But if I end up needing 50K + merit to get the amplifiers that I need, well the average joe is not going to do that and will play something else. So far, I've been disappointed at the low merit gains and high champ costs. Not so much for myself, as I have the $100 founders pack and should be able to stay on track, but for those F2P players or those who come late in the game... Too many money sinks are a bad thing. Hopefully Turbine will handle it in a good way and make it a positive aspect of the game and not some ungodly crazy grind that you need in order to be on equal ground.

  10. #90

    Re: Introducing Amplifier Sets

    Quote Originally Posted by Stez007 View Post
    First off, way to be an *******. Good job with that.
    Glad you didn't take it personally or anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stez007
    Second off, you clearly misunderstand why people are indeed repulsed by the idea.
    Repulsed again, eh? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stez007
    It's not the grind, it's not the remote possibility of paying with real money and it's not about out-of-game factors influencing the game.

    Systems like these only give the illusion of customization, when in reality there will always only be one optimal set that everyone will need to use in order to be competitive. It'll take a week or so for the top level players to determine the optimal sets and another week for those sets to trickle down to every single player, after which all "customization" aspects will be rendered moot. If people choose to use non-optimal sets then they are gimping themselves. If Catwoman is mathematically and practically strongest with flat Attack Armor Penetration augments then every Catwoman guide will recommend them, which means everyone looking to play Catwoman will get them and tell their friends that want to play Catwoman to get them, whom in turn will tell their friends to get them and so on and so forth until it's the universally accepted practice.

    It will happen that way and Turbine knows it will, but they're going through with it regardless. It'd be a lot better for the game if, instead of adding power through augments and mods, they put those stats onto the champions and items themselves. That eliminates every problem outlined; it's a damn shame that it won't actually happen.

    If you'd actually read this and the other (now closed) thread you'd know that the majority of posters think it's a horrid idea. The sample size is enough to convince any statistician that the majority of players that have heard the news dislike it. We've seen how this works, we know we don't want it. Even if it's "okay" it's still unwanted. End of story.
    End of story, you say? I guess that's fitting because it sounds like you skipped to the end without reading the story. I read the story. I did read that 20+ page thread. And this one. And while you claim the issues aren't as I've outlined them (grind, pay-to-win, out-of-game factors influencing in-game balance) the actual opinions posted in the threads you're referencing back up my claims, not yours. Going through and counting the opinion of each player who voiced an opinion with any sort of reason behind it (each player only counted once, regardless of how many times they posted), I got the following numbers:

    21 Players are concerned that the Amplifier system will turn into a grind.
    6 Players are concerned that the Amplifier system will be pay-to-win.
    11 Players are concerned about out-of-game factors will affect in-game balance.
    31 Players have voiced opinions that I'd characterize as positive or neutral/wait-and-see, with far and away the most-used reason being customization is a good thing.

    Now, feel free to give-or-take a few of each to account for my subjectivity in interpreting them, and you've still got a fairly even split between the positive/wait-and-see and the negative/concerned.

    I also found it interesting that out of all of those posts, I only found 6 players, including you, who have argued or agreed that the customization provided is "illusory" and there will be only one optimal set of amplifiers. As I've mentioned before, I strongly disagree with this assessment. I leave room for the possibility that Turbine will do a great job with the system and make it so that there are good reasons to take a variety of amplifier loadouts for each champ.

    It seems ignorant not to go into this with an open mind, seeing as the game is still in closed beta, and all. Closed beta is not for closed minds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stez007
    Poor effort.
    Unoriginal much?

    -GK

 

 

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