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  1. #21
    Joining Harmony awK_Spaghetti's Avatar
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    Re: Underused Jungle

    Quote Originally Posted by Xoulrath View Post
    I agree with this. I really like the jungle in this map. I think that it should be a challenge. That isn't the issue that I personally have. I'm just a bit saddened by the fact that I have to take specific items/Stolens that are really only intended for jungle clear. It's not that you have to take one. It's that you have to take multiple. At least Consume and Detonate are useable in lane should you find yourself there.

    I don't think much needs to be done to the jungle itself. But I would like to see a bit more Will Regen, either on a Marauder, or from a camp kill. As Flash I simply go OOM too often. When I played Gas Cat, there was no Will issue at all. And Batman of course is an Energy-based Champ who is also beefy, so he clears the jungle very well.
    I don't run Consume + Detonate. I've even jungled without powers. They increase your safety and your early clear speed, but they are not at all 100% required.

    Most people take 2 powers not for the clear speed, but for the security on Destroyers, Raider, and Leviathan.

    It's also not at all out the question for their to be required jungle picks and items. In fact, it's pretty standard. You're doing a very different thing than everyone else, and the game is mostly balanced around what is happening outside of the punching NPC part.
    Last edited by coL_Spaghetti; 02-04-2014 at 04:07 PM.

  2. #22

    Re: Underused Jungle

    Quote Originally Posted by Xoulrath View Post
    Flash can jungle well enough. It's just that you either have little Will to be useful for a gank early on, or you have too little health to gank. He can clear the jungle just fine with Consume, Detonate, and Maurader's items. I grab the health one myself. The jungle clear isn't the problem here or on CC. It's the lack of sustain that he has.

    As far as laning, he does quite well in a duo lane, but he is too heavily outplayed by pretty much everyone in a solo lane. Marksmen just poke at you while you try to farm, and you aren't strong enough to do anything about it. Blasters punish you in much the same way. Bruisers take far more hits, so you can't really afford to lane against them either. Same deal with the Enforcers. Supports can fall into either Blaster, Bruiser or Enforcer roles. And other Assassins are all stronger than Flash early-game. In addition, Gas Cat and NMB have a poke of their own and never have to directly engage Flash and can just continue farming.
    I jungle Zatanna on GD using default augments. The jungle on GD really isn't that difficult, though having a leash on the health destroyer helps a lot(though it isn't necessary).

  3. #23
    Protector Xoulrath's Avatar
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    Re: Underused Jungle

    Quote Originally Posted by coL_Spaghetti View Post
    I don't run Consume + Detonate. I've even jungled without powers. They increase your safety and your early clear speed, but they are not at all 100% required.

    Most people take 2 powers not for the clear speed, but for the security on Destroyers, Raider, and Leviathan.

    It's also not at all out the question for their to be required jungle picks and items. In fact, it's pretty standard. You're doing a very different thing than everyone else, and the game is mostly balanced around what is happening outside of the punching NPC part.
    You are free to go jungle Flash in a PUG without Consume/Detonate and post up a video to show me how it's done. In a group, there is no real issue. Leash the elites and then grab your health drop. It's that new players don't always know what is going on. At least people who play MOBAs understand the concept. But in a pug, it's hard enough get people to do anything right, much less help an early jungle.

    With that said, the game can't be balanced around PUGs. It must be balanced around premade teams.

    I'd just be happy if Flash's minor Q buff didn't come with the longer cooldown and Will cost.

  4. #24
    Community Advocate Paradigm's Avatar
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    Re: Underused Jungle

    Quote Originally Posted by coL_Spaghetti View Post
    I don't run Consume + Detonate. I've even jungled without powers. They increase your safety and your early clear speed, but they are not at all 100% required.

    Most people take 2 powers not for the clear speed, but for the security on Destroyers, Raider, and Leviathan.

    It's also not at all out the question for their to be required jungle picks and items. In fact, it's pretty standard. You're doing a very different thing than everyone else, and the game is mostly balanced around what is happening outside of the punching NPC part.
    I always run AGL Consume and Flash's Super Speed while jungling Flash. I would suggest that having at least Consume is more-or-less required in the sense that you want to be able to have that jungler presence at the objectives. You did say this, I'm just saying that it really depends on what you mean by required. You can certainly kill the jungle without it, but you would be gimping yourself as a jungler.. Unlike LoL, Consume has a heal as well as potentially other effects, so it could be more reasonably seen in lane, as well. I'm expecting to see some pretty interesting 5 man consume games eventually.

  5. #25
    Considering Harmony AWARE.FreshSnow's Avatar
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    Re: Underused Jungle

    There hasn't been a MOBA yet that allows you to do whatever with whomever wherever, and that is a dream that will never come true. Accepting that there are skills, champs and build orders designed for jungling, and champs that just aren't meant to go there is just something you'll have to do at some point.

  6. #26
    Protector Xoulrath's Avatar
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    Re: Underused Jungle

    Quote Originally Posted by AwA_FreshSnow View Post
    There hasn't been a MOBA yet that allows you to do whatever with whomever wherever, and that is a dream that will never come true. Accepting that there are skills, champs and build orders designed for jungling, and champs that just aren't meant to go there is just something you'll have to do at some point.
    I'm not sure to whom this quote is addressed. I'm personally all for MORE role separation in this game. The devs are the ones who have stated that they wanted to leave it more wide open as far as builds go. It's why Zatanna works better as a Blaster than a Support. It's why Robin (at least on GH) is a solid Bruiser.

    The items themselves allow for more diverse builds as well. Prior to the newest patch, I had a Flash build that was pretty damn mean, especially for GH, where the builds can get up to speed faster. It made Flash more like a Bruiser than an Assassin. I had plenty of PD with a ton of health and CDR. I also had all the Power and Attack Armor that I needed. And I had great Will Regen to keep me from ever worring about being a paper weight of a Champ in the middle of a team fight. That build should never have existed. With this latest patch, the devs definitely toned down the items that I used for that build, and rightly so. But the point remains: the devs themselves have stated that they don't want team comp to be a focus, and they believe that any comp with any Champs should be able to win. I'm not the one who thinks that. Turbine is.

    I'm personally all for clearly defined roles in the game. Right now there is a lot of blurring and I think that it hurts the game more than it helps it. With that said, Flash is an Assassin, and to me at least, he belongs in the jungle to make the most of that role. He can jungle well enough. It's just a bit lacking in my opinion.

  7. #27
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    Re: Underused Jungle

    They need to make a few adjustments
    - Make rewards for quick jungle clearing higher.
    - Make Counter Jungling an option
    - Have jungle items have a good end-game build path

    Honestly, if you ever want to make jungling effective you have to give it goals.
    - Do you want to gank lanes and assure you team mates get the help? With the downside being that by helping lanes, you aren't helping yourself because you take time out from clearing to gank lanes
    - Do you neglect your team in order to help yourself by farming the jungle? the downside being that your team has to fend for themselves and endure the ganks from opponents.
    - Do you go out of your way to find the enemy jungler in order to steal his camps? With the downside being that it's risky as enemies can envelope you from multiple sides if they respond accordingly

    I'm not trying to brag by saying this but I was a plat in LoL before the S4 reset. My main role was jungling. In LoL, you take a jungler for those specific reasons. Jungling should feel as a lane itself, your opponent being the other jungle. You guys both have your jobs and you should be competing.
    -You can counter jungle to starve the enemy jungler out, especially if his ganks aren't getting kills
    -You can gank and help the team with objective
    -You can farm the jungle and pray that your laners didn't lose without your help

    Each one like I said before should have advantage and disadvantages. As a jungler you have to make that decision with your team.
    - The Jungle camps should be VERY HARD but easier to beat with jungle items. This is to discourage anyone from lanes trying to come early-mid game to take some of your spawn.
    - Jungle camps should offer more EXP if you can kill them continuously than lane minion exp to encourage players to stay in jungle instead of perma-ganks attempt all game
    - Jungle camps re-spawn timer should not be small. This is to encourage counter jungle. If the camps take a long time to respawn, if you miss it, THAT IS A LOT of exp and gold. It's also a lot of time you waste doing nothing

  8. #28
    Level Designer Fantus's Avatar
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    Re: Underused Jungle

    Quote Originally Posted by Xoulrath View Post
    ...I'm personally all for clearly defined roles in the game. Right now there is a lot of blurring and I think that it hurts the game more than it helps it. With that said, Flash is an Assassin, and to me at least, he belongs in the jungle to make the most of that role. He can jungle well enough. It's just a bit lacking in my opinion.
    I understand where you are coming from. However we cannot make champions that are perfect at every role, because then the game would be boring and everyone would pick those champions. So naturally, every champions has his or her own strengths and weaknesses. Some champions are good in the jungle, some are not. We designed the jungle so that every champion -can- jungle (through amplifiers, stolen powers, and items) however not all of them will be the most efficient doing so. Nightmare bat can jungle taking super speed and cameras, while flash might have to take both stolen powers to be able to clear the jungle. They both end up being able to clear the jungle, but at a cost.

    Every choice you make in this game (and in life, for that matter) has an opportunity cost. If you choose to do something, you are actively choosing not to do something else. If you choose to eat eggs for breakfast, you are actively choosing to not eat cereal. If you choose to jungle, you may be giving up additional damage, surviveability, utility, or something else. It is the price you pay for a less aggressive lane phase (not having to be in a lane to get credits) and it constitutes a different play style.

    In short, not every champion can jungle effectively. We designed it that way. It is not because we hate all our players, or want to force them into a specific role or play style, its so that we can keep the game balanced, evolving, and fun to play. Also it's beta, so we may do a 180 on this issue in the future - but for now, we are fairly happy with the jungle.

  9. #29

    Re: Underused Jungle

    I agree with Fantus. Not everything can be perfect, and you must find a balance.

    I decided to let Fantus go on his word choice error though. I don't think there are too many here with a large enough background in economics to constitute the change.
    Last edited by Dycer94; 02-06-2014 at 07:50 PM.
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  10. #30
    Protector Xoulrath's Avatar
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    Re: Underused Jungle

    I'm happy with the jungle too. I just wish that I could get a team that didn't AFK and understood that I (playing as Flash) need to have a leash for that first elite camp. I love going 33/5/2 in a 3v5 just to lose. I would have been much happier having the two missing teammates, having fewer Kills, more Assists, and a W and the end of the game.

    I'm just giving feedback. Flash doesn't clear the jungle as well as many other Champs. Turbine is aware of it and it is working as intended. Now, just give me my damn 8 second CD back on my Q (and lower the Will cost).

 

 

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